Interview with Barbara Tanner Salt Lake City, Utah

THIS INTERVIEW HAS NOT BEEN EDITED FOR CONTENT, LANGUAGE OR HISTORICAL ACCURACY.

Rick Randle: Barbara, we're really glad to have you here with us today. We're going to ask you to go back a little over sixty years and try to remember some of those experiences. Can you tell us where you were on December 7th and what you were thinking and what went through your mind?

Barbara: Yes I remember it very well because I was skiing with my husband and his uncle, Obert Tanner, and we had a loud speaker--we were up at Alta, Utah--and the loud speaker came on and said that the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor. Of course we all knew that this meant we would go into the war. As you know up to then we hadn't openly participated. So we went down immediately and got in our cars and came back to Salt Lake. It was just a very momentous moment in everybody's lives. I'm sure everybody on that hill was just stunned. From then on we kept getting news on the radio about the affects of the bombing, and so forth. We were glued to the radio and the news. Norman went down with Obert to the office and kept going to the Tribune building because they would flash news reports about what was happening. I remember it very well.

Rick: Had you heard of Pearl Harbor before that time?

Barbara: No, I wasn't aware of it as a special place or anything. It didn't mean anything.

Rick: Tell us what happened after that in your life.

Barbara: Well, my husband was a reserve officer so he called up the next day and said he was ready to go. He had deferments up to then so he would just wait for his orders. He got orders two or three days later I think and he was to go to Fort Lewis, Washington. We just prepared and got ready and we packed up our car and we drove up to Fort Lewis. Of course from then on I stayed with him and our little son. He was about 4 years old and we took him along with us when we left Salt Lake and went to Fort Lewis.

Rick: Tell us of your experiences in Fort Lewis.

Barbara: You know it's funny because there wasn't a lot of extra housing available for anybody, so everybody was looking for a place to stay and the first place we stayed was an old motel which was run down. In those days there use to be a lot of little motels or mom and pop places, you know, of wood that were built quite cheaply. But at least they were cover and we stayed in one of those for quite awhile 'till I finally was able to locate a little house on a lake where we lived. It was really attractive and cute and small but we were lucky in finding some place that we could live. Before we found that, we just live kind of like Okies in this little old room with a bathroom and we kind of made a… I think we turned a table into what was a kitchen and we managed for (I don't remember now how long) but we stayed in that motel for about two to three months and then found this little house.

Rick: Did you have a lot of friends that were in the same boat and a lot of comraderie there?

Barbara: In Ft. Lewis? Well luckily I had a very good friend from Ogden. I was born and raised in Ogden, and her husband was a doctor with one of the… he was a flight surgeon, as a matter of fact, and he was with one of the air force units there. So she and I immediately started renewing our friendship. She had also gone to the University of Utah so I had known her for years. She and I kind of kept company and had made friends with a few other people around. We did have a little company and we had friends and then we got acquainted with our neighbors there on the lake and we were quite comfortable there for a while. Incidentally though, it was interesting… we use to get reports every once in a while that the Japanese might come over and bomb us so we all had some place that we were going to run to—behind some trees or some place in a yard or something, and we were kept under a certain amount of nervousness and fear that the Japanese might come back. I'd almost forgotten that until you mentioned it. And it wasn't something that hung over our heads heavily or anything, but we were aware that that was possible.

Rick: Did you have any idea when he was going to be shipped overseas and what were your thoughts thinking about him going over?

Barbara: Well, you lived with that constantly. But Norman was with a unit … a national guard unit from North Dakota and they didn't expect to be sent overseas right away because they weren't prepared and quite ready to go. I guess so we didn't think that we'd be leaving immediately but it wasn't too long after we were there that Norman had the opportunity to apply for a flight training so he could be a liaison pilot for the Army. And he was accepted and ordered to Texas so we left Washington within just about three or four months and went down to… I think his first place was Oklahoma, Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. And then he went on to Texas where he was being trained for flying as a pilot.

Rick: Try and tell us what your thoughts were when you finally found out he was going to be shipped over seas.

Barbara: Oh, that came quite a bit later and by this time he was well-established with his unit down in Mississippi. It was just a regular Army unit I think it was part of the… no it was later that he was in the 3rd Division, and I think it was the 69th Division and it looked like we'd be there for a little while because they didn't have immediate plans to leave or didn't expect to be called for awhile. It was at that time that I became pregnant with our daughter and we felt like we were kind of safe and being kept there in Mississippi for at least six months or so. So I wasn't expecting him to be called right away but then I had to come to Utah because I was having some problems and the doctors said that I should go home because I shouldn't travel during the last three months. So I left Norman in Mississippi and our son and I took a train to Utah. That was kind of hard because I didn't know if Norman would even be able to come to Utah for the birth of our child. I didn't know for sure when I'd see him again but I needed to go, so I did, and then it was about three months later, almost a week or two before the baby was due, that he got order to go overseas and it was a real surprise and shock because the unit he was with was not called out, but as a pilot he was called out to replace pilots that were needed in the Army and he didn't even know where he was going or what unit he was going to be with or anything. He was just a replacement pilot for the Army again. So he came back to Utah and said goodbye and left so we had about two days I think before he had to leave and then I didn't hear from him again for, oh it was over a month because after he left there was D-Day. At that time I didn't know which direction he had gone or whether he was on a boat or if he was being flown to the South Pacific or the European Theatre. But in any event, I didn't hear from him again. I think he did… he could call me, I'm sorry. He called me and said goodbye. He didn't exactly say goodbye but I knew that's what it was, and he couldn't tell me where he was so I didn't know. I didn't hear from him again until after the baby was born. In the meantime they wouldn't let me send any message to him either. I had a number. You always had a number where you could send any kind of information but it wasn't like a telephone call and you didn't know where the number was going, you know, you just had a number and it was suppose to reach him. Finally we got word that we could tell him, because he had gone to his Red Cross Unit and said the he had to know what had happened to me and they weren't going to tell him. They said that they couldn't give out any information because everything at that time was so secret because of D-Day and after for quite awhile. And the ships at that time were in danger because of the submarines. So they use to zigzag across the ocean and you never knew for sure how long they'd take or where they were going to land or anything about them. Finally we got this short telegraph that we could send information and you were only allowed to say, I think it was ten words that you could use, and so we just said, "Mother and Susan doing fine" or something to that affect. We mentioned Susan because then he would know it was a girl, and that was the first information he got.

Rick: You know that's a great story. I want to go back to when he was going to be shipped overseas. There were millions of women and parents and girlfriends that experienced this same thing but I don't think I've ever talked to somebody who was about ready to deliver and had a four year old. So could you recreate for us as a representative of all of those millions. You are a great example to try to let the world know what you were feeling deep in your heart. You may have never seen him again.

Barbara: That's right.

Rick: If you could go back to that and just try to… it might be a little hard for you, but try to give us those thoughts about what that must have been like.

Barbara: Well, actually Clark then was about five and a half because we had been in the Army for a year and a half, and it was a dreadfully lonesome feeling and I knew that there was this possibility that he may not come back. I knew I had two children and have to support them. But I remember the evening that I thought I was probably going to deliver. I sat on the steps of my mother's house and I was upstairs, and I sat on the steps and I had a naturally terribly lonesome, fearful few moments. Fortunately my mother was there and she was a great strength to me all during the war and I was lucky. I knew I was lucky that I could go home and I wouldn't have to face all of this alone. But anyway, she was there and I said, "Mother I think I'm ready, we better go to the hospital." And I just thought if I could just have let him know that the baby was coming… it was a little late and I knew he had been nervous about it and he was somewhere out there on a boat, probably out in the middle of the ocean, and I just hoped that he could know that probably everything was going to be alright. I just hoped too that he was alive out there on a boat because you never knew. Quite a few of these boats got sunk so I didn't know where he was or if he was OK or anything. But when I went up to the hospital the baby fortunately came very easily and I didn't have any trouble, but afterwards I remember I started to cry and there was a nurse there and she was really very understanding and helpful and I told her a little bit. I said, "My husband is somewhere and I don't know where he is." And she use to come in and see me every night and it seemed like every night I'd be just fine during the daytime and I'd have company come once in a while or some relative but at night I'd start to cry and she would come in and she was just very kind and helpful and she'd always say, "You're OK. Everything will be alright." She just gave me a lot of help and sympathy and then my mother was always there and took care of Clark and she was devoted to Clark, so she loved to help and she was a great strength and I felt just sick. I had this awful feeling all of the time, but at the same time there were so many other people having problems and everybody had shared in something so you couldn't feel any self-pity. You just had that lonesome achy, awful feeling. Fortunately it wasn't too long until we got this message that we could send information. I knew that when I got the message that we could send Norm the information, send him a telegram which we hadn't been able to do, that he was alive and he was some place. I didn't know then where he was. This was after D-Day. I would judge it was about a week or two, somewhere in that time frame.

Rick: And so after you got the message to him that you were fine and it was a baby girl, what correspondence back and forth did you two have?

Barbara: We didn't have any until he sent a letter. And the letters in those days took a long time and then you wouldn't just get one. I didn't just get one, but you'd maybe get three or four at a time and sometimes you wouldn't hear again for along time and then all of a sudden you'd get three or four letters again. In the meantime he was writing and keeping me kind of posted so when I would get the letters I would get caught up for maybe a few weeks before and then suddenly you'd get another three or four letters. But he was great and always telling me not to worry, he wasn't in any danger, he was fine and everything was going well. It wasn't until he got home and I'd say it was a day or two after he was home, we went up to Jackson Hole for kind of a little honeymoon and we stopped in Brigham City at a restaurant and I saw these men with their artillery. They were called, no they were ground forces and they had a badge on them, so everybody knew and we'd heard terrible stories about how hard they had it fighting on the ground. So I went up to them and said, "You know, I just want to tell you how much we appreciate what you've done, and I'm so glad to see you here and looking well and happy" or something to this affect, and they said, "Oh gee, we didn't have near as tough a time as your husband. The only people we wouldn't have traded places with were those little guys and those little planes up there flying over us." I didn't know then how much danger he had been in, because he never told me, so I really felt like he was fairly safe as far as safe as you can be in a war.

Rick: That's interesting. Tell us about some of the sacrifices that had to be made by you and your parents and your friends through the war and along with that… in fact I would like you to talk about those letters. Did you get the v-mail letters?

Barbara: Yes.

Rick: Were they censored some of them?

Barbara: Not often but yes, occasionally. But I guess Norman knew enough not to send anything that had to be censored too much or taken out.

Rick: Could you tell us what the v-mail and letters were like?

Barbara: Well as I mentioned, they always came in kind of stacks and they were on very light paper. In fact a whole dozen letters would hardly weigh anything—the paper was so thin and all. Sometimes you'd get one that was dated maybe several weeks before and I don't know that all of them were kept that long, but at least it would maybe depend on where they were and so on and so forth. You'd always get several at a time and then you wouldn't get any again for quite a while.

Rick: What was his experience? Did he get your correspondence regularly?

Barbara: I think so. I think his was probably similar. You know I don't recall. I couldn't say honestly. I don't remember him saying anything about it because everybody knew it was going to take awhile.

Rick: Any experiences that you can recall of the war widows like yourself. I'm sure you must have had friends who maybe lost their loved ones. Could address that?

Barbara: Well fortunately in Ogden there were several what we called "War Widows." Our husbands were overseas and a lot of us were friends and relatives and one thing or another and there was a group of us that use to get together. We would meet once a week and one of the mothers was just wonderful for having parties for us, and entertained us, and we loved going up to her house. She was just one of those pleasant, jolly women that really relieved you of all the strain that you were under, you know, for the circumstances. So those meetings and those parties and all were just a great help. There was wonderful support in the community in those days so that most of us that were home alone were able to kind of live quite a normal life. Sometimes we'd have some really fun times, but one of us lost her husband, a very young fellow. They just had their first child and they were a young couple, younger than some of the rest of us. We were all young but I think she was probably just maybe 20 with her first child and he was an only son. The mother use to come and visit. She lived in California and it was her only child and I've wondered ever since what that woman did because she was so wrapped up in that boy, and her husband had died. She was a widow. And of course she was happy to have the grandchild, but we all felt just terrible when he was killed. But as a whole most of us were pretty lucky and I think she was the only one who lost her husband of our little group. One of the women also had her husband gone for three years. He was over in the Pacific and she had a son and he didn't see that little boy. I think the boy must have been about a year when he left, and I don't think he saw him until he was about 4. In our case Norman came back when Susan was about a year and a half.

Rick: That must have been hard on those servicemen as well as you women.

Barbara: Yes, I think so. I had to laugh when Norman tells the story of how he kept going to the Red Cross because he was concerned and worried about me and he knew that I must have had a baby. In the meantime, since he'd been gone and he was very worried and concerned, he went to the Red Cross and said, "I've got to hear how my wife is doing…" Well the fellow in charge of the Red Cross didn't think that was anything momentous at all. People were having babies all of the time and that wasn't important. They had to get important information back and forth and Norman thought it was terribly important, so he finally went in and he said, "I'm going to meet you out in back and beat you up if you don't give me some information." Anyway, the fellow thought he was really serious, I guess, so that's the time that we finally got some kind of a little notice, or asked how we were doing or something. You know to a person who is away from home and doesn't have any information, it's terribly important to them to know personal information of that sort. But I can understand that there were so many people and so many tragedies and so many problems that were much more important to the Army.

Rick: Tell us about some of the sacrifices that you had to make as far as rationing.

Barbara: Ah yes, you know we got so used to the rationing that I don't think we really felt deprived. It's interesting. I think it's just like people that live in a poor community and everybody is poor—they really aren't aware of their situation so much. But we had gas rationing, of course, but everybody joined and kind of pooled and helped one another in that regard. And we had meat rationing and I remember I use to worry and send packages over sometimes to supplement the food that I thought maybe Norm wasn't getting. But then I found out later that being an officer, he got to eat in the officer's quarters and they ate pretty well, and I think they ate better than we did. They had more meat because we didn't have very much meat. We had meat rationing. But that didn't bother me. I'm sure it probably worried and bothered a lot of people but the hardest part wasn't the rationing and it wasn't all of the things we saved. And we did—we saved everything. I was telling Sally that we even saved string. Mother would roll up a ball of string and we'd keep adding string to it and we'd take string to the grocery store along with sacks and I don't remember what all, papers of course. We didn't use sacks unless we had to and we always saved them. We did a lot of things that maybe we ought to be doing today. But that really wasn't hard on me. As I say, it might have been hard on some people but I just thought that was a small effort to make. What really was terrible was listening to the radio every night and keeping track of what was happening to the men overseas, and then always they'd have somebody that had been killed that was from your own hometown—somebody you knew. And you were always listening to see if some plane had been shot down that might be full of Americans but also neighbors and people you knew because sometimes it would be somebody's brother or somebody's son and you knew a lot of these people and it was heart-breaking. That part was what, I still remember, I still think about all of the wonderful young men who were killed and so I don't think it's hard to go without. You know a lot of the things that we think are necessary if you think you're helping, you were willing to do whatever you could to save those boys. Of course we didn't know for sure if we'd win the war, but everybody felt positive we would because after all we had great confidence in America and we were working sending all kinds of materials over. But there were a lot of precarious times in that war with the Japanese particularly and the Russians and the Germans were taking such a toll.

Rick: We want to get your feelings now about when the war was over and what you felt like. Did you know where your husband was and how soon you would see him? Then tell us about him coming home and you meeting him. That's a big order for you.

Barbara: You know, it's funny but I can't remember… I think by the time V-day came we knew the war was over. We knew that America and the allies had won and the actual day signing was kind of a relief. I don't remember feeling any great celebration although there was I think there were guns and things that went off but I only felt a great relief. Before that I'd already realized at least that the Germans were on the run and that it was only a matter of time. So it wasn't as though it came as a great surprise or anything. But I knew then that Norman would be coming home and fortunately he had so many credits. You know they use to release them and bring them home according to the credits they had. He was kept there for a little while, a few weeks or something, and they wanted him to stay later because they wanted him to take over the job because he was a Lieutenant Colonel I guess at that time… they wanted him to be in charge anyway of a major group that was left. He said, "No, do anything you can. I don't want anything. I just want to get home. I want the first boat home." And so he did get home quite early.

Rick: Was this before Japan surrendered?

Barbara: Yes, this was before Japan surrendered.

Rick: And so he came home before VJ Day and before the atomic bomb?

Barbara: Yes. Let me see… I don't know if the atomic bomb… I think he came home shortly after VE Day. It's funny you forget some of these little things you'd think you'd remember. He came home shortly after that but he didn't know for certain that he might not be sent to the Pacific, but he had enough so we felt pretty sure that he wouldn't be called to the Pacific. At least I couldn't believe at the time that there was any possibility of that. I think he had a leave until that fall and he could have been called back, but in the meantime they had victory in Japan.

Rick: Let's go back to VE-Day. Didn't people go out and bang on pans and stuff out in Ogden?

Barbara: You know, there were some noises and all but I don't remember it much because I was home with two children. I really don't remember specifically what they did and what happened.

Rick: Where were you when you first heard that he would be coming home?

Barbara: I was at my mother’s home when he sent a telegram. Now I'm not sure, but I got word that he'd be coming to Ogden on a train at such and such a time and it was in the morning. When he left all of my, well not all of my friends, but the family, my mother and my sister (and incidentally my brother was over in England and had been in England as a navigator on a B-25 during all of this time too.) So we were always worried about John as well as my husband and my mother use to just sit at that radio every evening when the news came in because we had John and Norman overseas. But anyway, I remember when he went overseas for the first time, I went to the railroad station and there were all of these other people, there and our little boy was there and of course Clark was there and Norm's uncle, Obert was there and a couple of friends and my sister and a sister-in-law. We all were there to say goodbye to Norm and I just felt so terrible and I didn't want all of those people there. I just wanted the moment all to myself and I shared it with everybody who was naturally concerned too. I felt kind of cheated that everybody was there and I remember going down to the railroad station crying and feeling horrible. So when he came home, I didn't want anybody else to go and I told my mother she couldn't go and I left Clark home. I left the baby home. I left everybody and I went down by myself, which now seems kind of crazy, but I just wanted that moment all to myself. It was funny because after we hugged and everything and kissed and all he said, "Well, where is the baby? Where's Clark?" He expected everybody else and I was there all alone, and we went home shortly and everybody else was there to greet him later.

Rick: When the train pulls in and you're there alone, did you see him at the window?

Barbara: No, he came off of the train and walked. In fact as I recall, I was back. I don't think they let us go where the train tracks were. As I recall I was back when he came off, and he looked just wonderful. And he didn't look like he'd been in a war at all, you know. And he was so happy to be home that he didn't even talk about the war. And he never ever did talk about the war. He didn't tell any stories. Once in a while he'd tell someone some little thing, but I don't think he wanted to think about it. So we went up to Jackson, as I mentioned, and we had a beautiful honeymoon and everybody was so happy to see us. One man bought us some drinks and somebody else paid for our dinner one night and the hotel was… we stayed in this, I can't remember the name of it but I can see it… it was a lovely hotel. A couple ran it that we had known before, Mrs. Browning, and every morning out in front of the door would be a bouquet of flowers and it was wonderful. The whole country at that time was kind of together! Everybody was a unit, kind of in feeling, for the soldiers and the families. There was great support. So we had a wonderful week up there and then immediately Norm wanted to get back to work and he started… we went to California later to see his parents, but he took time off to do some selling, a little bit here and there and he just wanted to back into normal life.

Rick: Let’s go back again to… you had strangers who would just put flowers in front of your…

Barbara: No. The flowers were put in front of us by the woman who owned the hotel. But she had known us before, just slightly. We'd stayed there before the war once. Anyway, Jackson was kind of a favorite place.

Rick: And you still had the threat of him having to stay in the service and maybe go to Japan?

Barbara: Yes.

Rick: So when did you first realize that maybe that wasn't going to happen? Then tell us about when you heard about the atomic bomb being dropped and the Japanese surrender.

Barbara: I didn't expect Norm would have to go because he had so many points that I thought he had time to stay, but I remember the atomic bomb. There was a mixed feeling as far as I was concerned. I thought that would end the war but I was also horrified because I kept saying, “Why did they drop it on a city? Why didn't they go clear off an island and drop it on an island?” I think I was aware that this was setting a precedent and if we did it maybe somebody some day would do it again. I was not real excited about it but there was a certain… and everybody was relieved because at that time there was talk that maybe we'd have to send in a force to actually take Japan over, and we knew that would be horribly costly. So I think that most people felt a great relief, in a way, and they knew this would end the war. But there were mixed feelings I'm sure from a lot of people. I still think they made an awful mistake dropping it and I didn't see why they needed to drop two, but they said at the time…they were impatient, so anyway that's history.

Rick: Tell us now after VJ Day when Norm was finally discharged and you knew he was going to stay home. Was there a moment when you felt relief after the victory over in Japan?

Barbara: I think I really felt the relief when he came home from the European Theatre. The other didn't concern me personally so much, it was just the whole war situation. Actually the Pacific at that time was so horrible and so menacing that it was a concern to everybody. We were all worried but personally I kind of felt like my personal relief and joy was the European Theatre.

Rick: Norm didn't talk about his experiences. Did you talk about it with your daughter and son and tell them stories?

Barbara: No I don't think so. As I say, Norm was so anxious to get back to his civilian life and just have a normal life again. I think a lot of the soldiers at that time didn't really want to talk about the war. It's too horrible and all that they saw and all… No, you were just so anxious to live a normal life. And it's funny… our little boy saw us moving around, and he knew and he reacted very strongly when I told him the war was over. When the European war was over and I remember him saying, "Well now my daddy can come home." So he felt it too and I'm sure everybody felt such a tremendous relief when the European war was over that somehow or other, and I could be wrong, but the other wasn't quite as dramatic. Now maybe it was. People had soldiers over there.

Rick: It depended on where your husbands and wives and loved ones were serving.

Barbara: Of course. It would depend on where you were.

Rick: Were you aware that there was an internment camp down there in Delta?

Barbara: You know, I don't even think I knew about Topaz or read much about it. It wasn't a big concern to civilians, to most civilians. I think if we had been aware of how they were treated… I don’t think it was fair to move those farmers I'd read about at the time, but it really didn't concern me a great deal. I think your emphasis is so much on the war and all. I do remember though that we had two Japanese friends who were good friends and they use to go see Norm's parents in California and while Norm was, we were in California… I guess it was just before the war, or maybe it was after we got in and we were visiting in California, and one of them came to se us and I remember the feeling that he had and he was aware of the prejudice against the Japanese and we were very sympathetic to him because he was a real nice guy. And he went into the war—he and his brother both enlisted and went into the war. But I wasn't aware of Topaz at all. I didn't even think about it. If it was in the papers it just didn't register. It was not a worry to most civilians I would guess.

Rick: Ogden was a main rail terminal and I know they brought a lot of German and Italian prisoners of war through there. Did you ever see or hear any of them?

Barbara: I heard lots of stories about them because they were stationed at Hill Field and I had an aunt who was working there. She was a chauffeur for the people. She'd come home and tell stories about how well they were treated and how some of these women were having affairs with them. I'd get all kinds of wild stories. Whether they were true or not, I don't know. But I can tell you that they were very well treated there and some of them even wanted to stay, I understand, because they liked the United States and they would have preferred to stay here. They say that some of those prisoners too were… they weren't treated, from what I heard, like prisoners at all like you'd expect war prisoners and especially the Italians were kind of cheerful, easy going and they just kind of fit into the picture in a way. They say that they were often working around where the people were. They seemed to be free. They weren't barred or anything. They seemed to have jobs they gave them evidently. And I didn't actually see any of them but you'd hear stories every once in a while about some girl working there and she was really attracted to some Italian prisoner or something. I only know what I heard. It may not be true.

Rick: Most Utahns are not aware that there were that many prisoners of war around Utah, but they were all over the states.

Barbara: I know a lot were at Hill Field.

Rick: Was there a romantic side to the war in terms of the music and dancing and national pride…?

Barbara: The war music was wonderful music -- some of it. Glen Miller's band was always popular and they'd play, as they always do in war, patriotic songs and things. There was some of that but… and of course you were kind of proud you were a part of it. You were glad in a way that your husband was doing his duty, so to speak, and doing his part and you were doing your part, but basically I wouldn't say it was very romantic. It might have been to a lot of people who weren't really involved in it but the main thing I remember is just being fearful as to who was going to be killed next. Then in the movies you'd see these terrible newsreels, which would be similar to what we get on television today, of all these refugees in the war. I've always been so sympathetic to people, like I am right now, who lose everything they have. I never felt anything romantic about the war except just your general feeling of doing what you can and being patriotic and so on and so forth, and of course the men always looked handsome in their uniforms--you'd get a certain pride and thrill. But basically the war was just horrific to me.

Rick: Maybe if you were single it would be a different story.

Barbara: That's true. It would be very different. Some of the girls that would meet the fellows at the trains and entertain them or they'd have dances for them… see I didn't get into any of that, so I don't know. And I never even went down and served donuts, which maybe I should of but I was pretty busy with a new baby and a child.

Rick: When these trains would come through Ogden the ladies would go down and hand out donuts and sandwiches to the servicemen. Tell us about that.

Barbara: I think that there was a certain excitement and thrill for a lot of young people. They'd go down and meet the trainloads that came in because Ogden at that time was the railroad center and everybody traveled by rail, so there was always a canteen open and volunteers would go down and serve the fellows coffee and donuts and such. A lot of the young girls really enjoyed this and had kind of a good time. It was fun for them to see because usually there were young fellows just going over, soldiers just going out. I don't know if we ever saw trainloads of the wounded and that sort of thing because they were kept in Europe or sent to the hospital so the fellows that arrived were kind of excited sometimes and young and spirited so the young girls probably enjoyed seeing them and there would have been some fun times. And then they had dances at the USO clubs. There were USO clubs weren't they? Wasn't that the name? And they'd have parties for the fellows, and a lot of the young girls participated in that and enjoyed it I'm sure.

Rick: They did that all across the country too--every railroad stop. And Ogden, which was a big rail center. That was a big party for young single girls. I'm sure that was a great activity. Can you talk about the rationing effort and The Depression.

Barbara: I'm sure they did it during the war too. Of course during the war you were short of just a lot of things you would take for granted today. So a lot of people had vegetable gardens and they'd share their vegetables and while you could buy things at the grocery store, you didn't have near the choices, and I'm sure there wasn't much space taken up for fresh vegetables and fruits. People just made most of what they had. But as I say, it all came kind of naturally in a way because we'd all come through the Depression and it was still really Depression days until the war came. It lessoned as the years went on. The affect of the Depression lessoned but there was still that very frugal attitude towards most things so that having to ration during the war didn't seem like any great sacrifice to me. But my mother use to… well she was Stake President of the Relief Society and as such she had been in charge, or at least she had initiated a lot of this herself, arranging for people to put up food. They use to pick all the extra fruit from Brigham and all through this whole Valley was full of fruits and vegetables and they'd put up tomatoes and peaches and everything else for the Church Welfare. They also used it for welfare purposes for the Federal Government. In fact, when the Federal Government first started helping with relief, they must have used the Church organization to an extent to help them or else… and I don't know just why this was, but my mother use to even give out relief checks and I don't know why but… anyway it seems like they'd come there to our home to get relief. Maybe it wasn't federal. In any event she used to have all the women bring their sewing machines down to one ward and she was a very fine seamstress herself. She would make patterns and have them bring their old clothes and with the sewing machines there they'd have a little factory and she'd help them make children's clothes and coats and suits and things out of the men's worn overcoats and suits and anything they had that was usable for children's clothes and they use to turn out, (I think my mother told me once) hundreds of children's coats and different clothes items. She was a good at drafting patterns so she was very helpful and she would make the patterns and help these women and show them how, and they had kind of a little factory making clothes. With this kind of background it wasn't hard to make do with what you had during the war. It was just as good as most people had anyway.